Curse

Dark Tykane · Jul 15, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

If they were made into spells than vampiric spirit would be over powered...enough said.
Cultist's Fervor even more than that....

Kuja · Jul 16, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

The point isnt that they are overpowered its that they are too easy

please dont get gaile messing with expertise, tell her to change vamp skills to spells/attack skills and adjust recharge.

Dragannia · Jul 16, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

I've already suggested this before. Making the Vamps into spells would utterly destroy TRs, which frankly is stupid. TRs teach people how to properly kite, like an idiot filter. In any case, making the two Vampiric Touches into "Deal X Shadow damage. You gain this much in health" would make them still powerful, but much weaker (since things like Reversal would affect it now).

Holger · Jul 16, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

TRs teach people how to properly kite, like an idiot filter.

amen.

why don't people take one or two skills to counter touch rangers!?
shouldn't people be trying to personalize their builds to be effective against a variety of builds instead of just a one?
there is at least one skill per profession that works as a counter to another profession's skills.

tomcruisejr · Jul 16, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Arcane Echo > Iron Mist > Echo * > Iron Mist > Iron Mist

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

I've already suggested this before. Making the Vamps into spells would utterly destroy TRs, which frankly is stupid. TRs teach people how to properly kite, like an idiot filter. In any case, making the two Vampiric Touches into "Deal X Shadow damage. You gain this much in health" would make them still powerful, but much weaker (since things like Reversal would affect it now).

Yes making them into spells would make TRs not viable anymore because the only reason why they use Rangers is due to the expertise attribute that allows them to spam these high energy skills in the first place.

I dont think ANet wants to totally destroy the build and that is why some skills in the caster line are designated as "skills" rather than spells, from the very beginning.

It is not ANet's job to make PvP easy for you all the time, it is your job to think of counters (which there are many) if you want to win.

Dark Tykane · Jul 16, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuja

The point isnt that they are overpowered its that they are too easy

please dont get gaile messing with expertise, tell her to change vamp skills to spells/attack skills and adjust recharge.

Read the post right above this one....
Theres a big reason why Anet made some necro skills count as just SKILLS instead of spells.
If you make them into spells you get necros arising doing almost the exact same thing as touchers but they will be doing more damage....

Dark Tykane · Jul 16, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

I've already suggested this before. Making the Vamps into spells would utterly destroy TRs, which frankly is stupid. TRs teach people how to properly kite, like an idiot filter. In any case, making the two Vampiric Touches into "Deal X Shadow damage. You gain this much in health" would make them still powerful, but much weaker (since things like Reversal would affect it now).

Things like Protective spirit would also save the caster.....life stealing was a huge nerf for 55 monks....what happens when they make the skill into dark damage? then you would see an uprise of idiots doing pretty much the elonas reach run only in the jungle.

Caleb · Jul 16, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I would rather they nerf people that open the 15th thread on the same subject.

Touch rangers are extremely easy to counter/defeat.

JoeKnowMo · Jul 16, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki Seiguro

a simple fact is that touch rangers will not be nerfed.

touch ranegsr were created through smart thinking like all the other builds so it would be wrong to nerf touch rangers (not sure if what im saying makes sense but w/e)

A lot of builds that have been nerfed were created through smart thinking, so this fact doesn't preclude a nerf for touchers.

Having played a toucher myself, I have to say it is an easy build to play and is highly effective against a multitude of builds.

A quick review of counters to touchers that ppl brought up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

I can't beleive so many people fussing about this...think of it as a game of "Tag"...the trick is not to get touched...How do you accomplish this? RUN AWAY! Kiting, kiting, kiting...try it for Dwayna's sake...sheesh SO simple...SO many people have figured this out already...leave my build alone.

EDIT: Please look here for suggested counters for touch rangers...took me 2 minutes to find it: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/R/N_Touch_Ranger

Taken from the GuildWiki link posted by TwinRaven above:

Use anti-spammer strategies, such as Blackout or Diversion.

Diversion is a good counter. However, it has a 2 second cast time (with decent points in fast casting), 10 second recharge, and is effective for 6 seconds. Combined with a couple of Wastrel's Worries, you could around 120 dmg (at high Dom) during the time that Diversion is on if the toucher waits out the diversion. Throw on an Energy Burn for another 80 dmg. If the toucher waits out the first diversion there's at least a 6 second downtime before you can get the second one on him. During this 6 second down time, the toucher can get off 3-4 touches, doing 195 to 260 dmg to you while healing themselves for that same amount.

Blackout is a counter to almost every build, but disables your skills too, so you won't be doing much damage to the toucher either.

Diversion and Blackout will slow the toucher, but won't kill him, unless he's dumb enough to use a skill when diversion is on him.

Even mild energy denial (eg. Malaise or Wither) coupled with Signet of Humility causes a lot of problems for Touch Rangers.

The problem with Malaise is that the toucher can spam his touch skills, and when he gets down to 0 energy, Malaise/Wither will end. In a few seconds, he will be at 5 energy and can use OoB to get his energy back up.

Signet of Humility will disable their elite for 13 seconds. A pretty good counter if you can time it just before they need to use OoB.

Snare the ranger and run away. Ward Against Foes and other area snares are highly effective against groups of Touch Rangers.

Traps, ward against foes, etc. will help against touchers. But often they will plague touch the cripple away. Ward against Foes does well.

Focused damage and health degeneration. Life stealing is slow and inefficient healing relative to pure healing spells.

Make them your primary target. However, your melee type players should move away from them and thus can't contribute to the damage being dealt. With high armor against elemental dmg, your ele will need some timet o kill them.

If timed properly, Meteor Shower should keep them down long enough for them to be taken down, as they can only heal by touching others.

Cast a MS and stand in it. Again, this is elemental dmg and they can usually get a touch or two in before the next KD, thus losing almost no health.

Crippling Anguish can slow them and cause health degen, two things that the build can't handle.

Yes, this will mess them up. As will imagined burden, Ehtereal or Kitah's Burden. More on Illusion Mesmers later.

Assassins armed with skill interrupts/knockdowns can also shut down this build.

If they bring some sort of skill to prevent blocking/evasion by the ranger.

Water Elementalists can be used to slow down a touch ranger and deal damage before it can reach its target; Mind Freeze is particularly effective.

Mind Freeze will do great. But it's not a very high dmg elite. Again, with high armor against elemental, a water ele takes a long time to kill a toucher.

What I find works best is Illusion Mesmer skills that slow and other that degen them. I typically run a Shared Burden/Imagined Burden build (since touchers tend to bunch) along with Mantra of Persistence when I see a lot of touchers around, and then throw degens on them. This is probably the most effective build against touchers and it's not completely useless against other builds too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helll is for Heroes

just bring a cripple/poison/interrupt ranger and you win.

Touchers typically have dodge/zojun's haste/whirling defense on, so good luck trying to hit them with your arrows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mathijn

a toucher chains skills, so if you know how to interrupt(frenzy+choking gas?)
they are useless.

How did this work out for you? I hope you eventually realized that choking gas only interrupts spells not skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade

Just because it's difficult to beat doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. 2 Diversions and their entire skillbar is shot. Even worse is to just use Scourge Healing on them while you're using the diversions. At 12-16 smite it completely cancels the healing they get. That means you can go R/Mo with Scourge Healing and stop their touches from healing them, meaning that if you also pack Distracting Shot and another interrupt or two you can completely neutralize them. Called Shot also bypasses their stances, so Scourge Heal + Called Shot will kill them easily enough.

Distracting shot will hit if they're not in a stance, which they usually are. Even if they're not in a stance, you have to anticipate the touch and fire before they touch. If you mistime, have fun running around for 10 seconds while it recharges.

How did Scourge Healing work out? Pretty badly I'm guessing since it only works on direct heals and not on life stealing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brahm Earis

I've got a touch ranger, and here's a couple of hints to stop them.

1.) Slow them down. Cripple, knockdown, imagined burden, ward against foes, something to slow them down.

2.) Mesmers. Mesmers always own the hell out of my touch, especially diversion.

3.) Stop sucking. Learn to play and stop whining. Wild blow>whirling defense and lightning reflexes. Diversion>touch skills. Cripple, imagined burden, ward against foes, knock down>running.

Thats my input. My ranger is touch for PVP at the moment, and they aren't all uber unbeatable.

KDs are OK against touchers, except you usually need to be in melee range to KD and that means they're gonna be stealing back life.

See my earlier note on diversion, a toucher can usually wait it out without too much trouble.

Wild Blow will work well to end their stance. But there are very few warriors that can go toe to toe with a toucher and still win. As the warrior bashes them for damage, they are doing 130 dmg to the war and healing themselves for that same amount every 3 seconds. Don't bother trying to heal with Healing Sig, as they'll steal as much or more life from you as the heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

i can take my ranger one on one with a touch ranger(or any other caster). 9 of 10 times ill beat the touch with normal bow skills. incendary arrows(everytime arrow hits target is interupted and set on fire),tigers fury,pin down,savage shot,distracting shot, serpents quickness, troll ungent and whatever i feel like throwing in for the 8th slot.

If a touchers is not using a stance, they're just bad players. If they're in a stance like they should be, only 1/4 of your arrows will hit. With Tiger's Fury on, you'll be shooting arrows once every 1.33 secs (with a short or flatbow). That means every 5.33 secs, you'll hit them once. They'll be doing 195-260 dmg to you over that time while healing themselves. If your Pin Down misses, you'll have to wait over 10 seconds for it to recharge and hope it hits this time. Once they get up close, they can touch off the fire or cripple on to you. With no running skills, a good toucher shouldn't have much trouble with your build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade

Just something you all may want to consider- Favorable Winds, Seeking Arrows, whatever you want. Now they can't stop your arrows from hitting them, and a simple Pin Down will slow them enough to take them out.

Yes, this build will work. Hit them with some high damage stuff after Pin Down and this should kill them pretty fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holger

also. if you think you're up to it, try using distracting shot on their vamp bite. i've put plenty of touchers out of business like that in alliance battles.

Tough to hit their touches with Distracting Shot as you're playing a guessing game. Also, if they're in a stance you'll most likely miss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol_Vie

If you're a warrior or a ranger there's an easy fix to touch rangers. Bring interrupts. Wait for the ranger to get right up next to you. Once he's about to stop hit Distracting Shot or Blow. Bam. One skill down. Then just spam your interrupts. Works really well. Works against W/Ns with Plague Touch too.

Would work if they didn't hit you with throw dirt or use a stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holger

why don't people take one or two skills to counter touch rangers!?
shouldn't people be trying to personalize their builds to be effective against a variety of builds instead of just a one?
there is at least one skill per profession that works as a counter to another profession's skills.

So, an Air Spiker with blinding flash should bring some form cripple or slowdown just for touchers? Maybe bring some water skills? So they should put some points into Water Magic, thus reducing their Air Spiking ability against rangers who already have high armor against elemental? Maybe they should also bring Water Attunement so they can use Deep Freeze when it becomes available? The fire nukers should do the same?

The fact is that touchers are such a threat that we have to bring counters to them. They don't take much skill to play. I know from experience as it took me very little time to learn to play and win consistently with them. I just got bored of running it and now run it only very infrequently with much success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyDean

Personally, I don't hate touch rangers because they are powerful. There are plenty of powerful builds out there. The problem I have with touch rangers is that not only are they powerful, but they are very difficult for most builds to counter. There are only a few skills/builds that can effectively counter a touch ranger. For those of us that dont run those skills/builds, it is near impossible to kill a touch ranger. People arent stupid vs touch rangers. People just cant devote half thier skill bar or change thier build for just one build they encounter. It's just not feasible. I'm pretty tired of hearing that everyone is stupid because they hate touch rangers even though there is a counter to them.

Yes. Touch rangers require quite some space on your skillbar. There are only 3 builds that I think are effective at killing touch rangers and still useful if you're fighting other builds.

1. Domination Mes with Diversion, Wastrel's Worry, Energy Burn, Backfire, Shatter Enchant, Blackout, Energy Surge/Psychic Distraction/Glyph of Renewal, etc. Moderately effective.

2. Illusion Mes with Imagined Burden or Ethereal Burden or Kitah's Burden, Crippling Anguish/Shared Burden, Conjure Phantasm, Images of Remorse, Clumsiness, Energy Tap, Ether Feast, Mantra of Persistence. This build can effectively mess up a team of touchers, which is how you usually see them in AB these days.

3. Seeking Arrows Ranger with Distracting Shot, Savage shot, Pin Down and your choice of damage dealing attacks. Effective, but only against one.

I don't consider a Water Ele a great counter as the damage from water magic is pretty pathetic, especially to rangers. You can slow them, but someone else has to do the killing.

Tanks with Wild Blow will still have a hard time outdamaging the toucher who is also healing himself with each touch.

Ward against Foes Earth Ele, will only slow them down, not kill them. And each time you stop to cast an offensive spell, they will probably get close enough to get a touch in and negate the damage you've done.

And there you have it. Feel free to add other builds that you have tested and that work against touchers. Not just builds that slow them down, but builds that also kill them.

I'm not calling for a nerf. I'm just pointing out that touchers are powerful and easy to play builds. Touchers require more effort to counter than it takes to run the touch build. I can counter them just fine with my Illusion Mes build. With Mantra of Persistence, I can slow a group of them for 35 secs, and then degen them. But it's pretty sad that even when you know what build your opponent is going to be running, there are so few effective counters against it. If you expect a team of all warriors or smiting monks or IW mesmers, let's say, you can quickly come up with several builds that will make their lives hell. This is much harder to do for touchers. Also, if you take a well-rounded build that's setup to counter casters and melee types, it's usually going to be ineffective against touchers. Blinding, weakness and defensive stances are useless against them. Cripple can be effective as long as they aren't close enough to touch it off. Since they can touch off most conditions, you have to degen them with hexes rather than conditions. Backfire (usually), Empathy, Clumsiness, Ineptitude will do them no harm. 95% of melee builds will die against a toucher. Energy denial is moderately effective, but OoB is a great counter to it.

If you think touchers are easy to counter, you've only played against someone who doesn't play it well. A good toucher will take down over 80% of builds in the game without too much trouble. I know it's not a 1 vs. 1 game, but oftentimes, you are matched up 1 vs. 1 against another players. And if you want to talk team game, 4 touchers, or 3 touchers and a boon prot will take down most team builds without breaking a sweat.

Coming up with counters to touchers has been fun and challenging, but let's not kid ourselves by thinking they're no problem to fight.

Feel free to debate any of my points. I'm all for open and intelligent discussion. None of this "If you can't beat a toucher, you're a n00b" crap. Provide support for your points. Too many defending touchers don't support their points, or provide counters that don't work (Scourge healing, choking gas, pin down, etc...).

samifly · Jul 16, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Well for one - Crip Shot cannot be blocked or evaded- so it goes right thru the stance.

pork soldier · Jul 16, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Dead simple fix: vamp touch & vamp bite disable all other non-spell necro skills for 4 seconds.

JoeKnowMo · Jul 16, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by samifly

Well for one - Crip Shot cannot be blocked or evaded- so it goes right thru the stance.

Your other arrows will miss though, if they're in a stance. So, Crip Shot is good for slowing them, but not finishing off touchies.

nomercy · Jul 16, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avaith Faer

I say nerf Bonders, it's sooo cheap how they keep the NPC's alive in Fort Aspenwood... Let's nerf Adrenaline too, those Warriors have way too much spike potential!

I'd prefer it if ArenaNet left touch rangers alone and went to work on important things. Besides, how often does a Touch Team take Halls as compared to, oh, maybe... IWAY?

Whatever they do, I hope they do it soon. I can't stand the 12876514617171461771 threads about touchers sucking, or the suspense of waiting to see what they are going to do to the build...

They are in the game for a reason... Why don't you think about that reason before you request/demand that they be removed?

Perfect example of one that only knows how to play Touch Ranger.

Holger · Jul 17, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

So, an Air Spiker with blinding flash should bring some form cripple or slowdown just for touchers? Maybe bring some water skills? So they should put some points into Water Magic, thus reducing their Air Spiking ability against rangers who already have high armor against elemental? Maybe they should also bring Water Attunement so they can use Deep Freeze when it becomes available? The fire nukers should do the same?

wow... just wow...
i thought windborne speed and shock/gale were air magic attribute-skills

when i play nuker in ABs, i tend to take bed of coals/lava font... the DoT helps a lot when i'm fighting touchers

DarkSpirit · Jul 17, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

My thunderclap ele eats touchers for breakfast, I am so happy whenever they come for me.

Poison Ivy · Jul 17, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyDean

Is there anyone here that didn't already know this? I didn't think so. We know how to beat touch rangers. I'm just not willing to take mesmer secondary with diversion on every character I pvp with so I can play on an even field with touch rangers.

Are you talking to yourself?

If you knew how, why even bother with this thread.

Who said Diversion was needed to paly on an even field with touch Rangers.

Use your brain (if you have a functioning one) before you post

Dark Tykane · Jul 17, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

Are you talking to yourself?

If you knew how, why even bother with this thread.

Who said Diversion was needed to paly on an even field with touch Rangers.

Use your brain (if you have a functioning one) before you post

I too feel as if I am talking to myself when i encounter a believer that touch rangers can and should be nerfed.
They each one I tell that each and every way you have thought of to nerf the TRs would cause an inbalance elsewhere.

Please people this is the last time I'll ever say it...don't beg for nerfs when there are easy ways past them

crazeeeeh · Jul 17, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomercy

Perfect example of one that only knows how to play Touch Ranger.

so what if the only build they know is touch ranger build?
let them be. stop whining if they kick your behind and eat you for lunch.

DarkSpirit · Jul 17, 2006, 08:59 AM // 08:59

I doubt they will nerf touch rangers since to be an effective one you need to buy 2 chapters of GW. It's like nerfing their best customers just before Chapter 3 pre-order. Besides, it is not overpowered and hardly used in GvG tournaments.

But it is a new build which is not countered by many of the earlier cookie-cutter pvp builds.